Episode 5 Transcript - Mama Said Part 2
Episode 5 - Part 2 - Parenting Styles
Rachel: [00:00:00] The content of this podcast, Generation Mom, is for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and their guests are their own and do not constitute professional advice. While we strive to provide accurate and up to date information, this podcast is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional, medical, financial, legal, or other advice.
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Pam: I think it's great that in this day and age, that's all recognized because when I was having children, there was no such thing as postpartum depression, and that I had it.
I had no support from anybody and we didn't really have the nurses to come and help you and all of that. And I got into this really [00:01:00] dark place and I wasn't sleeping because I was afraid she was gonna die during the night. And I had to watch over her, and it was really awful, and I really, I needed to be on some medication or something, but I just white knuckled it, and when I tried to talk to somebody about it, doctors about it, they looked at you like you had two heads, like, what, why are you having those thoughts
Hello, and welcome to Generation Mom. I'm Rachel, the elder millennial who tries to stay grounded in all of the chaos of modern parenthood. I'm Pam, the Bloomer Mom, to my two co hosts and Nana to their kids. I've spent And I'm here to share my generational wisdom with a touch of tough love. And I'm Laurel, your Gen X voice of reason, stuck in the middle, ready to weigh in with unsugarcoated advice.
Join us as we tackle life's big questions across three [00:02:00] generations, sharing laughs and insights along the way. This is Generation Mom.
Rachel: Welcome back.
Pam: How are you?
Rachel: Good, it's been two weeks. It's been two weeks. So we're catching up on our recording And last time we talked about parenting styles and we had a really great conversation And so today we're going to dive into part two of that conversation about Raising babies and we're all past the baby stage
Pam: for sure
Rachel: for sure especially mom and moms So I wanted to talk a little bit about how things have changed with baby rearing for the three of us.
Between things like sleeping and breastfeeding and just general health. Baby things that we can remember, but something that we talk about [00:03:00] often that I wanted to just do a quick deep dive into is the history of car seats .
It wasn't until 1979 that there was the first child restraint law, aka car seat law, and that was in Tennessee. And it wasn't until 1985 that all states passed laws requiring the use of car seats. In 1987, only 80 percent of Children used a car seat.
it wasn't until 1959 that the story began. Three point seat belt was invented. So that's the shoulder strap seat belt that you have in front seats before then it was just a waist belt. And keep in mind, there's no laws then about requiring you to wear it.
It wasn't until 1961, Wisconsin became the first state to require seat belts. And it wasn't until 1968 that seat belts became nationally mandated. And so [00:04:00] then you have in 1979. The law about car seats. And even now with the exception of New Hampshire, all states and the district of Columbia require adult front seat occupants to use seatbelts, adult rear seat passengers are also covered by laws in 33 States and the district of Columbia.
Children are covered by separate laws.
And I feel like now we've got kids in car seats till they're almost teenagers. Whereas, I can remember being six years old and riding in the bucket seats of Dad's Mazda RX 7. And that was
Laurel: I don't remember a time when I wasn't riding in the front seat and that just doesn't happen anymore.
Rachel: Yeah, kids are not in the front seat.
I remember we were watching the Bluey episode. Bluey had that special 30 minute episode. Oh, Laurel's wearing her Bluey shirt today. [00:05:00] And in Queensland, Australia, it's okay for a child, it's okay over the age of six to sit in the front seat as long as all the back seats are occupied. So I don't know if we have laws like that in America, but I thought that was interesting.
So, mom, I know you talk a little bit about remembering what it was like when you were a kid in the car. Can you share some of those memories?
Pam: , there weren't really any seat belts or car seats when I was a kid. And so what we used to do is we used to stand up on the front seat while the car was driving so we could see better.
And, and then my seatbelt was my mother's arm coming across. My chest, if she had to stop short or something. And then the other thing was that how the seats are [00:06:00] stationary. Now there used to be a thing where you could fold the front seat down and get in the car into the back seat. If the car only had two doors, which was common back in the fifties.
So that if the car stopped short, that back would snap forward. It would propel you right. into the windshield. The only car seats that I remember us having were these little seats , we were in like a car seat, but there was no protection and there was usually a steering wheel in front of us.
So that if the car got in an accident, you would smash your face right into that. And the other kind of things that they had to put babies in was these sort of bassinets, which they'd put on the seat in the back seat. So if the baby was really small, [00:07:00] that's where they would go. Nobody cared about us back then, but I do remember, let's see, Laurel was born in, uh, 76.
And I do remember the pediatrician that I went to see saying that it would be a good idea if we got a car seat for her. But you know how the car seats are rear facing now? I don't remember that they were rear facing.
Rachel: , I thought it was funny when I was researching, it said originally child seats started out as nothing more than burlap sacks with a drawstring that hung over the headrest on the passenger seat.
You
Laurel: have to put your baby somewhere while you're driving. But the seats
Rachel: were really designed just to lift the child to allow them to look out the window. Yeah. Keep the child more or less in one spot in the car. So they were really child friendly. Restraints. Restraints. Yeah. Containment [00:08:00] devices.
Pam: I did carpooling. This is terrible to admit now, today, but. We decided in our meeting, our carpool meeting, that it would be a good idea to put the kids in car seats, not car seats, seatbelts. But sometimes we had more kids than seatbelts, so we double seatbelt the kids, which is so dainty. When I think about it now, my skin crawls.
But what did we know? We didn't know anything, there weren't any safety regulations, and it just was so dangerous. Now, if you carpool, you have to have , a car seat for each kid, but there were no laws like that back then. I guess seat belting them together was better than what I grew up with, which was nothing, or my mother's arm coming across.
Rachel: Now they have so many different. Oh my gosh. So many different kinds and brands of car seats. And we have the [00:09:00] Graco one, the grow with me one that like goes from an infant to it becomes a backless booster .
Rachel: So what were views around things like breastfeeding or sleep training? Like what was the common practice?
Pam: Okay, breastfeeding was, was a little bit controversial when I had Laurel.
It was becoming more popular to breastfeed your kids and most of the literature said it was healthier, which it is. But then you had your mother and my mother thought that breastfeeding was barbaric and she didn't breastfeed any of us. And so when I said that I wanted to breastfeed, she was pretty horrified that I wanted to do that.[00:10:00]
And she also was very insulting. She told me that my breasts were too large for me to breastfeed and that I wouldn't be able to do it discreetly. Because of the size of my breasts. And of course you weren't supposed to breastfeed in public.
Then that was, that was scandalous at that time. Although that's my generation was the generation who did start to do that. Some of us were braver than others and could get around our mothers better. But so I did try to breastfeed Laurel but I got so much negative flack about it. It really made it difficult.
And as you both know, it's hard enough to breastfeed without having somebody criticizing you for it. Eventually I did put her on a bottle and she was much happier actually, cause I think I was less tense. And they can, the babies [00:11:00] can feel that. And then with you, Rachel, I didn't even try. I, I was defeated, which is too bad.
I feel bad about that. I really do. I have some regrets about that. I think you have to go with what you're feeling most comfortable with. Now, I'm a, I'm an advocate for breastfeeding. I think it's very good, especially in the first six months or so of a child's life. But I didn't have the support. I think it does take some support in order to do that successfully.
Rachel: So I wanted to talk to you, Laurel, about, about your journey with breastfeeding babies.
And what were some of the attitudes around breastfeeding for you at the time?
Laurel: For us, breastfeeding was, I think, regaining popularity. I think prior to sort of me becoming a parent or those years ahead, the formula was very, normal and expected. And I think a lot of the parents going back to work sort of thing and all of that plays into that, but it was [00:12:00] very, I came up in the era of all the sort of crunchy mom stuff and all the research coming through about breastfeeding being what's best for the child and all of that.
So I, I was very. I absolutely intended to breast feed. That was a big priority for me. With my first child, I had a very traumatic birth. Experience And so I had a hard time initially nursing him. And then I ended up with an infection soon after and in the hospital for a couple days after that. And they scared the crap out of me there.
With, cause I was on all the medication and the antibiotics and everything. And it's like the doctors handed me formula and closed the door on my nursing experience. And now I look back and I realized I could have got that train back on the course, but I didn't [00:13:00] understand that. Then I realized that then I was going through so much.
And my son, once he had the bottle, he didn't have a lot of interest in Nursing directly anymore, except at night, he did like to nurse, to sleep at night. And when he woke up at night, he would want to, so right about until your wedding. So like four or five months, he was getting bottles during the day and nursing at night.
And then, and I was a horrible pumper. I couldn't get more than an ounce or two in a pumping situation. And so then after that, he weaned off and I. Just gave him bottles after that. My younger one, I was bound and determined. I was not going to let that happen again. And when we were in the hospital, I ended up with my second C section, which I didn't want.
And He, we were in the hospital so long that he was losing a lot of weight. [00:14:00] And of course, when you're there for a day with a normal birth, they send you home, they don't worry about it, but because we were there and it takes a little bit of time for the milk to come in, he spent those first days totally attached to me just from one side to the other, but I guess he wasn't getting much of anything yet.
And so they started stressing me out about his weight loss. And so they start bringing in the formula and the bottles and everything and I'm like, no, this is not happening again. And I fought back then. And I, You know, you get to that point, you just want to go home and they wouldn't release me until he had put on some weight.
And so I think I gave him a couple of little, these itty bitty bottles just to get out of the hospital. And then when we got back home, , as soon as you're home in your own house, in your own bed, like. The faucets turn on and he was perfectly happy to just sit there. And I'm telling you, that kid would still be nursing now if he could.[00:15:00]
So he, overall, we had a much better experience. I did have, um, a sort of medical issue with him too, that I had to fight through. Um, it was extremely painful and, um, I'm trying to remember all the symptoms, but not so much on the nipple, but like. inside, like in my breast. And I get like this sort of cold feeling in my breast and nipple.
And it was very painful. And I was going to a, breastfeeding group at the hospital nearby. And I think my older son was in school or daycare at the time, preschool. And so I'd go and. I just got lucky. I was explaining what I was going through and another mother there said, I think this is what you have.
Here's the name and number of a woman who helped me. And I forget what it was now, but basically they put you on blood pressure medication and it, I [00:16:00] forget the whole situation now, but it does something to help it not feel that way. And once I got on that medication, I stopped having that feeling. And then eventually got to the point where you don't notice it at all.
You don't feel it at all. And that led to me nursing him forever. That was good. It's something I don't think if I'd walked into a doctor's office, they ever would have thought of. But because I happened to just meet up with that one woman and she gave me the name of a nursing specialist, sort of, I don't know if she was a postpartum doula or, but she has a business helping women with lactation.
You know, she's lactation control and all that. That was a much more positive. sort of situation.
Rachel: Yeah. I had a very similar experience with my first
I also had a slightly traumatic birthing experience with her. And I lost a lot of blood and that's a whole nother story, but they did not give me a blood transfusion, which they should have. And so, [00:17:00] because of that, my milk never really came in. And I remember she was a cluster feeder, probably because she wasn't getting anything.
Like she wasn't getting a lot and it hurt a lot. And we went. And the lactation consultant was very nice and she was trying, she had me on iron supplements and was trying to like, get that figured out. And we had a, what is it called? A lip tie revision done which was traumatic for me to watch that.
. So I tried. My best to breastfeed her. And I remember sitting in bed one night, Googling, is it okay to stop breastfeeding my daughter? And I think I wanted to breastfeed again, because I knew that it was just, It was definitely a breast is best environment and I knew it was healthy, [00:18:00] but my mental health was struggling and it was struggling because she was trying to feed all the time.
She was also losing some weight. So I had the pediatrician as well saying I was going weekly to weigh her. And she was a big baby. So she. Even though she was losing some weight, like they were like, we'll let you try for a few more weeks and then we're going to start talking about formula. And so as I was Googling in the middle of the night, I came across a story about a woman who did this.
Combination feeding. So what you ended up doing too, she would breastfeed her daughter first, and then she would give her a bottle. And so we ended up doing that for a little while where I would. feed her a little bit and then I would breastfeed [00:19:00] her for a little bit. And then I'd give her a bottle and we did that till she was about five months old.
And then I was just done. She seemed to really like the bottle. She was happy. She was sleeping so much better with the bottle. Like we were getting. So much sleep, like we were getting, we were both doing much better with the formula. So I was glad I had made that decision and I wish I hadn't beat myself up about it, but I did.
When I had my son , it was a much better labor and delivery, but I did lose a lot of blood.
I guess I'm just a bleeder. I don't know. But again, luckily I was with a different practice, a different hospital, and they let me go one night and they said, we're going to keep you one more day. And if your hemoglobin doesn't go up, we're going to give [00:20:00] you a blood transfusion. And they did end up giving me a blood transfusion.
And I think that made all the difference in the world because my milk came in right away. I was like a pumping champ and he did great. He still lost some weight, but you all saw him. He was thriving on, he was a chubby kid. He was. Bigger than my daughter was, and he breastfed exclusively through about eight months and even all the time we'd go in and he was this huge chubby baby.
And every time we would go to the pediatrician, they were like, he's low on the birth weight chart . They're looking at the chart, but not. At the baby and I would tell you guys about We laugh he was so chubby
Pam: you had, you had much more milk with [00:21:00] him.
You were a milk machine.
Rachel: Yeah.
Pam: With your daughter, you didn't really have. That much, but with him, you were really, you had a plentiful supply
of
milk.
Rachel: I did. And we kept it up until about eight months. And then I just decided like I needed my body back. I wanted my autonomy back. And so I stopped.
But I stopped too fast, and I got really horrible postpartum depression because of the hormone shift. And, I don't know if I shared with you guys, but I was seeing a ther a therapist, and I It was scary. I was having really dark thoughts. I was really [00:22:00] depressed and I was scared because I hadn't really felt that before.
Like, I had anxiety P. A. with my daughter, but this was scary and And luckily I was already seeing a therapist and she got me on, she suggested that I should be on anti anxiety medication. And that saved my life, I think, because I was in a very dark place and I had this beautiful baby. I had my daughter, I had my husband, like I should have been.
I felt like I should have been so happy, but I was just, and it was really, I think, because I didn't really wean very slowly. And so I think it was the shift in the hormones. And so I think a lot of people don't realize that too, that it can be delayed. Cause I was having the postpartum experience with him.
Oh, it's, we're so in love and [00:23:00] it's wonderful. And then all of a sudden, now that eight months when I weaned, it really freaked me out because all of a sudden it was like, I was just in this dark place. So hopefully that'll help somebody if they're thinking about, if that, if they're experiencing something similar, it can happen later than just right after.
having a baby. So I,
Pam: I think it's great that in this day and age, that's all recognized because when I was having children, there was no such thing as postpartum depression, and that I had it. And I had it probably the worst with Laurel. And it also was around the breastfeeding issues because I felt like a failure and I couldn't breastfeed.
And it was, I had no support [00:24:00] from anybody and we didn't really have the nurses to come and help you and all of that. And I got into this really dark place and I wasn't sleeping because I was afraid she was gonna die during the night. And I had to watch over her, and it was really awful, and I really, I needed to be on some medication or something, but I just white knuckled it, and when I tried to talk to somebody about it, doctors about it, they looked at you like you had two heads, like, what, why are you having those thoughts?
Your baby's perfectly fine, let's snap out of it. Kind of thing. So I, I really envy you guys because you get listened to which is nice.
Rachel: I don't know if it was like this for you, but I know when I would go to the pediatrician with both my kids, after those first few, right after having the baby, they screen you for blood.[00:25:00]
Postpartum now. So they're, they have a questionnaire that they ask you a bunch of questions. And with my daughter, I don't think I answered very honestly. Right. Because I was like, they're gonna take this baby away from me. Right. If I say that I'm depressed or I'm not, like, totally fine. And,
Laurel: and it's very obvious what the right answers are.
Yeah. And I had the same sort of thing like I and as also as someone who's had lifelong. Bounce with depression and anxiety. You have a hard time drawing that line between what is just me being me and what is the result of the pregnancy. But I also had, and it was somewhat delayed, not as delayed as yours, but the summer after my son was born.
My second one, and it was weird for me because it wasn't about my baby. It was about my older son. That was what the sort of depression was focused on. But it was, I was very alone that summer. Whereas when I had my first son, my husband was [00:26:00] working from home. He was very involved. I had you guys all around me with my second son.
My husband was working full time and in school full time. So I never saw him. He was never around. My parents were. Out of the country for an extended period of time. And I just, I was very much on my own and it was summer. So we had nothing going on. And I was dealing with this new baby. I was dealing with difficult toddler who I was going through a whole diagnostic process with him, dealing with those doctors, dealing with that insurance.
I, it is, you get to this very scary, dark place and you're aware enough to know, or I was. Yeah. To know this isn't okay. These feelings I'm having are not okay. I have memories of Andrea Yates and what was the other, the woman who drowned her kid, Susan? Susan Smith. Susan Smith. These, these events have happened in my life and as a non mother, I would look at that and think, how?
Does that even happen? Like what even goes through your mind [00:27:00] that this is okay. And then you reach a point where you're thinking those things and you realize you really rationalize it. For me, I thought it would make my husband's life better. It would make, it would be easier for everybody. And you start rationalizing all this stuff.
And that's when I went, Oh, there's some real, this is not okay. This is not normal. And then I had in that moment where you can barely deal with anything and you've got so much piled on you. Then you have to start calling, trying to find people who deal with postpartum depression, specifically, and who take your insurance, and who have openings, and all of that.
And that's the last thing you want to be dealing with when you can barely. Make yourself breakfast or whatever. Eventually I found someone wonderful and then she moved out of state, which several, a couple of years later, she moved out of state, which was very traumatic, but she was wonderful and she got me on medication also.
And she helped me through those tough years, [00:28:00] you know, to deal with my older son and deal with all the guilt I had around my younger son and all of that. So I, it's. It happens and it's, you just have to hope you have a support system and deal with it.
Pam: But at least people, at least today these mental health issues in general and around pregnancy and birth and all of that are not, are accepted and are identified and you aren't made to feel like you should be put into a mental institution right away or your children should be taken away.
And the dark thoughts I was having, I would never tell anybody what they were because I was convinced that The Child Protective Services would show up and, but I was very afraid. I was very afraid I, cause I would have these visions of giving her a bath [00:29:00] and her slipping in the bathtub and drowning and all these terrible things.
And I'm going, but no, that's not going to happen because I'm right here with her. But what if this, and what if that? And I had a tremendous amount of guilt, not only Because I felt at times that I wasn't adequate to take care of my baby, but that I was having these thoughts and how could I have these thoughts?
I had this beautiful little girl and what is wrong with me? There really is something wrong with me. Maybe the men in the white coat should come and take me away. And I had no one to turn to. Absolutely no one. And that was really hard, and people didn't talk about it like they do today. And I don't know, I wonder sometimes how I got through it, and I thank God that I knew that what I was thinking was not [00:30:00] right, and I didn't slip into a psychosis, which I guess I could have very easily, and done something that I would regret for the rest of my life.
So, it made me hyper vigilant to her, instead of, but my thoughts were about her being harmed. But that made me hyper vigilant, not want to go through with the harm. I guess I was lucky in that, I don't, I don't know. I worry about that now, because I think how alone I really was. And I think it's so wonderful that you have, today they listen to you and you get on medication and your parents, uh, understand it and you were just looked at as crazy, so of course you didn't want to really share it with anybody.
Rachel: When with my daughter, I think I white knuckled the postpartum [00:31:00] anxiety because I didn't, I was scared to tell anybody because I thought there was something wrong with me. Some of the thoughts, the intrusive thoughts I would have. And I didn't do a lot of things with her because I was scared. Like I remember not wanting to go to the grocery store with her.
Cause I thought I was going to drop her in the parking lot and hurt her head. I was scared about even just like walking around the neighborhood. What if somebody kidnaps us in the neighborhood? Like I had all of these intrusive ideas. of things that would happen to her and she would get hurt. And I remember just thinking, I'm, I just must be crazy.
I don't know what's going on. Cause I didn't feel depressed. But everything scared me and I, and it was the anxiety. And so I'm thinking, Oh, postpartum depression, I wouldn't be able to get out of bed and I [00:32:00] wouldn't be able to take care of her. And so I didn't understand that's what was going on until. Was through it, and then I, and then I started to learn more about it and that other people are, have that too.
It sounds like we had a similar. Yeah.
Pam: You did come and talk to me about it. I don't know if you remember, but you were here one day and you didn't look very good. And I started probing and the next thing I knew you were in tears telling me what, and I I think I told you then that what you were going through was normal and yeah that I had experienced it too and which I think just helps to know that you're not alone.
Rachel: Yeah it does. I think the sleep is another thing that probably also contributes to PPA and PPD, but [00:33:00] also I'm wanted to talk a little bit about what are some of the ideas about sleeping and how you approach the whole baby sleep thing with your kids.
Pam: Sleep was considered a good thing. Something that babies should do and they should do it in their own beds. So from the time that we brought you home from the hospital, both of you. You were put into your crib, your own crib, in your own room, and I remember one of the biggest fights that I had with your father was that there was one night when Laurel was cried and cried and cried, and I kept going in and taking her out of the crib and rocking her and all of that, and then finally, your father said, okay, that's it.
You're not going to [00:34:00] go in again. And I said, but she's crying. I've got to go in. No, you're not going in again. And we had this huge fight and he sat on me and wouldn't let me go in. And finally. She went to sleep and I was up the entire night because I'm worrying. Oh my God, she choked to death. She threw up.
She did that. I had all of these things that I'm thinking of that must have happened to her. And I go running in there in the morning and there she is, smiling and putting her arms over me to take her out of the crib and then I thought, oh my God, that was terrible. So yeah, our generation thought you should let them or some people like your father, thought that we should let them cry it out.
Laurel: My older one doesn't sleep and that would be even as a little kid, he'd be up past [00:35:00] midnight jumping around in his crib.
, initially, he slept in the I guess a co sleeper next to the bed initially, but that didn't last very long.
I was scared for him to be in the bed with me he slept in the swing for a really long time and you're not supposed to do that. But that was the only way we could get him to sleep. And so we had, and I still remember the little song playing along in the bedroom and he, he'd swing, it would click back and forth.
And then he got too big for that. And then I, we got to a point and I did it slowly. Like I started with naps where I put him in his crib. And he would sleep in the crib, hopefully. And then, and then at night I started putting him in the crib, but even then he'd wake up for his bottle in the night. And I'd end up with him in the bed for the rest of the night.
And then as he got a little older past baby stage, then he would be. Jumping in his crib and [00:36:00] flopping around and stuff. My younger son is different in his sleep. He, uh, he tends to go and then the minute he sees a pillow, he is out cold. He just is out and he sleeps through the night and he's an early riser.
He's just like his dad. He slept in the bed with me for a good bit, mostly cause again, I was nursing. So that was easy. He could just help himself. And, and then again, I started with, with. Naps, putting him in the crib and then move to bedtime. And that went really well. And he was sleeping all night in his bed.
And then at some point he figured out he could climb out of his crib. My older son never figured that out and was actually in his crib for a really long time. And one of the most traumatic things we ever did to him was convert his crib to a toddler bed. And I regret that, but I think he was three at that time.
It wasn't like it was unreasonable. My older, my younger one, we converted the [00:37:00] crib before 18 months, cause he was climbing out of it. And then he'd get upset cause his lovey or his passy or something would be in the crib and he couldn't get to it. And that was that situation. And then he'd come and get in bed with us.
So I converted it to a toddler bed and then once he could move around as he wanted to, like I was sitting outside his room at night and he'd peek out of his door and I'd say go back to bed and that would go on and then eventually I'd give up and go downstairs and he'd be in the bedroom or he'd fall asleep at the top of the stairs.
He'd like to sleep at the top of the stairs. Yeah, that's how our sleeping journey was, I think.
Rachel: Yeah, with our daughter, we had a co sleeper that you put in the bed. It was like a little bassinet, but it. It went in between my husband and I, and she slept in that. And then we had the pack and play in our bedroom where she slept there for a while.
[00:38:00] And then, so she was always a good sleeper and she slept for a long time. And she did it like once we got her on the bottle, she slept a really long time. And, but we got to the point where we wanted her in her own room and. So I remember doing like a little bit of sleep training with her and she took to it really easy and it was just like, they call it the pickup put down method and they like pick them up and then put them in the crib and then I forget what the point is to like, if they start fussing, you pick them up and then you put them down and you let them fuss for a few minutes.
And then if they, I don't know, you just do that over. And we did that for a week. Okay. And then she was great. And then she loved her crib and she slept in that crib till she was almost four, I think three and a half. And it was when she finally figured out how to climb out, but she was really good at climbing out.
[00:39:00] Like she was an expert, but it was funny. Cause she, at one point, you're not supposed to have anything in the bed, in the crib with your baby anymore. You've got to have nothing. And so when she was a baby, there was nothing. And then she was really funny. Cause she would like, she had this bus she wanted to go to bed with.
And it was not a, it was a hard toy, but it was not a stuffy. So she had that for a while and then she got into stuffed animals. And so then. It got to the point where there were so many stuffed animals in her crib and she had like just a little place for her body, but she loved it. And so we would rock her before bed and then she would say, okay, I want to go in my crib now.
And we would put her in the crib and she would just disappear into all these animals. And so we had our son and at around the same time we had. I think right before we had him, we converted to the toddler bed and then she [00:40:00] just wanted to sleep in bed with us. Like she would start out in her bed and then she'd realize she could get up in the middle of the night and walk down the hall and get in bed with us.
My son hates sleep. He's finally likes it more, but he didn't sleep. The only time he would sleep was in the bed with me attached to my boob. And. I remember one, there was one night. He slept in the pack and play for seven hours straight, and that was the only time he slept through the night when he was a baby.
The only other time was when we tried to put him in his crib. We had this cute, wonderful nursery set up for him, and he just He slept through the night once cause we were trying to do sleep training with him. And I remember we were doing the not cry it out, but like you let them cry for a while and then you go in and check on [00:41:00] them.
And I put him in the grip in the crib and he just went to sleep. And slept through the night. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this was so easy. It was great. And I wake up the next morning and I felt horrible because he had a raging fever. He was so sick and he only slept because he wasn't feeling good. And so this kid, I spent so much time trying to get him to sleep in a crib by himself.
And I would get in the crib with him and I would lay, cause I'm a five foot tall person. And I would sleep in this crib with him and he would fall asleep. And then I would creep out of the crib, like ninja, try to get out. And then I go lay down. And then probably two hours later, he'd be up and crying for me again.
And so at one point we just gave up. And he's been sleeping in our bed ever since, and he sleeps really great in our bed. And it was the only way [00:42:00] we, any of us could get any sleep.
We just redid his room and it's really cute and we're gonna try to start getting him to sleep in there. We'll see what happens.
Rachel: And one thing I want to say is I think we all can look back and wish we've done things differently. I think any way you can feed your baby, as long as your baby's fed and healthy, that's all that matters. If you want to try breastfeeding, try it. If you don't, don't. I think ultimately.
It's important for the mom to mentally feel good and it's important for the baby to be healthy, whether that, and at the end of the day, it's not going to matter if they were breastfed, if they co slept, if they, like my pediatrician says, they're not going to, Sleep in your bed when they go to college and [00:43:00] maybe, and one, you can't tell, nobody asks when you're applying for a job, if you were breastfed or not.
Pam: Well, and I hope that you two felt that that was the message that I was trying to give you, because, I didn't want you to, you did anyway, but I didn't want you to have the experience of feeling guilty because you were having trouble breastfeeding or whatever because that's what I believe that very much too.
And um, a pediatrician once told me when I took you and you both were hard to potty train and I took you to the doctor because you were three. And still in a diaper and enjoying it very much. And you had a pacifier. And he said to me, you can either worry about this or think about when she graduates from high school, she's not going to be in a diaper and have a pacifier.
And [00:44:00] after he said that, I took a much more relaxed position on it. And I didn't, I really didn't worry about it. I, and I gave up with Laurel. I just gave up. I was trying to potty trainer and it was, I remember I had this potty training book and you were supposed to put the kid on the potty and give him M& Ms.
And you had to do this for an entire day. And by the end of the day, She was in tears. I'm in tears. I took the book, I ripped it in half, threw it across the room, put a diaper on her, and I said, it's going to be your husband's problem.
And she really I am
Laurel: potty trained
Pam: now. Yes, when she was ready, she, when she was ready, she came to me with the diaper. Mom, I don't want to wear this disgusting thing [00:45:00] anymore. Okay, I have some really pretty little panties for you. Oh great. That was it. I didn't have to do a thing I'm
Laurel: more than got my karma
Rachel: For all of us I don't know how much you tried with your oldest, but I feel like with mine, because I had, you know, heard your perspective and I knew that your kids were slow potty trainers. I just didn't stress about it too much with mine. And my daughter is so stubborn. I didn't even try to force her because she's one of those people.
It's gotta be her idea or she's not. And I knew if I tried to force her, it was just going to be a fight. And so she was almost four by the time she potty trained, but it was on her timeline. It was, she decided, and I think she. She started peeing on the potty [00:46:00] first and then she started pooping on the potty.
And we just, it was her, actually her daycare that was like, , just send her in undies and pack a lot of extra ones. And they said, we think she'll be potty trained by the end of the week. And she was, and so we, we have a tradition where for different things, There's a fairy and the pass a fairy comes for the Pasi.
So the diaper, diaper fairy came and took her baby diapers away and left a toy. And she loved it. And we did the same thing when she was ready to get rid of the Pasi, the Pasi fairy came and brought her a very nice toy. And so my son now he's starting to, like, he's been potty training at school and every day they're like, He's using the toilet all day, so we'll probably start that with him, but again, I've [00:47:00] just tried not to stress about it, because it's going to happen, it's going to happen, they'll do it.
It's the
Pam: nature of the beast. I think that's what one of my, one of my pediatricians said to me. He said, it's the nature of the human being that if everything else is normal, that this will work itself out because they get to a point where they don't want to feel dirty or whatever. I loved that guy. He really, he saved me a lot of anxiety, he really did.
Laurel: I've had more relaxed idea too, especially dealing with what I was dealing with. And I have the sort of same thing as Rachel. He, his school was sending me notes home. Why are you sending him in diapers? He's potty trained and okay. So I started sending him to school in underwear. And I guess they.
They know what they're doing, and they have them on a schedule, and so he was potty trained at school, and then he [00:48:00] would come home, and the minute he got in the door, he would strip down, and it was like, as long as he was naked, he knew to go potty, but if he was wearing clothes, he would sometimes forget, and he'd wet himself.
That was the situation. Training was a whole different issue and I left him to figure that out for himself. But he, and he was pretty old before he would stay dry at night, but he, he pretty much probably trained himself and he figured out if I'm naked and this was when he still wasn't talking so he couldn't really communicate.
He had it all figured out and then my younger one I thought would be easy, but he was even more difficult. And honestly, he ended up with a medical condition because he was P trained, but he got very backed up and constipated. We ended up in the hospital in the middle of the night, which was horribly traumatic.
And. He was holding it. He wouldn't go. And then when [00:49:00] he did, he was hiding it. I, it was just bad. And so finally we got through that situation, but, and he's perfectly fine now, but, so there's always something.
The other thing, you know We'll touch on, and I'm alone in this at this table, but on this topic, I cloth diapered my, both my children. And I loved doing that.
I absolutely loved it. But with my younger son, I had to get to a point where I stopped. And for a while I was. Especially at night, we were doing pull ups at night, and then during the day, I had to figure out, I went, I don't know, Walmart or somewhere, and I found clearance underwear, and bought a whole bunch of them, and, cause I, I couldn't deal with it, I got to this point where I was like, I can't clean this, I can't deal with it, and I just had to be okay with throwing them away, and, yeah.
Pam: I actually did cloth diapers with Laurel.
Laurel: Did you have a choice? They were much different back then. You were [00:50:00] dealing with pre folds and pins.
They're very fancy.
Pam: Yeah, they were the white, it wasn't like those little things that you had with the snaps and all of that. This was with a pin. A pin, yeah. And, but we had a diaper service. So what you were supposed to do is you're supposed to change your child, put the diaper, the dirty diapers, Not do anything to them, just put them into this bin.
And then once a week, they would come and pick them up. Oh my God, that was God awful. It really, I mean, I, the guy came to pick them up and I said, You don't need to come back.
And I went to, Disposable diapers, which in those days, weren't the greatest you have to really change the diaper constantly.
Whereas today they're all these engineered with all this absorbing and all of that. And that they weren't like that then, but boy, it was better than that diaper bin thing. [00:51:00] Oh, that was horrible. So when you said you were going to cloth diaper your kids, I was horrified.
Laurel: Everybody tried to talk me out of it, but I really stuck to it. I cloth diapered her. She's probably 10 years across the two of them. And I think that now there's, first of all, many different brands and actual, it's gotten to the point where there's certain just there's Pampers and Huggies. Like there's certain cloth diaper brands that kind of have that name brand.
Honestly, my favorites were the China cheapies that for those of you who cloth diaper the alphas. Oh my God, they were amazing. Like those were my favorite. Now. Especially my older son peed like crazy, but I would use the, the bamboo. I liked the bamboo and the, the charcoal bamboo. So I'd double up the inserts and they were pockets and they snapped.
Once you figure out how to get them snapped on so they don't leak, like they're wonderful and they worked better than some of the fancy expensive name brands that couldn't hold his pee. And, and they're so cute and, you [00:52:00] know,
Rachel: This was fun. I hope it's helpful too for people to hear our stories and hear the different perspectives on babies and know that you're doing the best you can, the best you can.
Pam: I would say as long as your child is happy, is eating.
and gaining some weight and is clean and in a clean environment, you're doing a really good job. So pat yourself on the back because raising children is difficult and none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes and the most important thing is to learn from your mistakes and When you bring up the [00:53:00] next generation, try to make it so that they do a little bit better than you did.
That would be my advice.
Laurel: You can't anticipate anything, no matter what you think.
Pam: No.
Laurel: God laughs as you make plans. Is that the same? Yeah. Whatever you think it's gonna be like, it's not. And no matter how much you think you're prepared for it, you're not. And you never know what those first few months after having a baby are like.
You don't realize What you're really going to go through no matter how prepared you think you are, how many books you read, how many decisions you've made, they're going to change. They're things are going to happen, but also know that don't let the doctors freak you out about stuff. You can get things back on track and I've taken a, there are certain things.
I've gone with and certain things I've not gone with, and I was crunchy to a point, but there's certain things I believe in and did that the crunchy people would disagree with. I think do what's [00:54:00] best for you and be okay with other people doing what's best for them and their kids. They know, I cloth diapered Rachel didn't, and we each did what was best for us.
Pam: I would say too that don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. Like the issues that we were talking about around postpartum depression, or even if you're having some thoughts that are disturbing to you, you can ask for help. Don't be afraid to go and ask for some help.
Laurel: And if it's too hard to find the help yourself, find someone who can help you find that help.
Pam: Go to a doctor or your doctor or your baby's doctor and I think that's really important. And also if you need some respite care, also don't be afraid to ask. And I think it's really important, especially in those early months of infancy, which you're totally sleep deprived and it's a hard time.
Rachel: And know that it's a season. We've all, we're all through the baby season [00:55:00] and
Laurel: they're only going to want to sleep with you and cuddle you for so long. I'm at that point.
Rachel: I'm not out of that season yet, but
Laurel: it's very sad when you don't have that baby anymore. Right. I'm
Pam: looking at two mothers here who used to be my babies and it went by very quickly and I know as you're sitting in it, it doesn't feel like that, but when you get to be my age and you look back on it, it seems like a minute in time.
It really does. So try to enjoy it a little bit.
Rachel: Yeah. Enjoy it. No, it's okay. You're going to have the moments where you don't enjoy it, but Also, as you get out of the season, the hard nights you won't, they'll fade a little bit too. You won't, you'll remember the good stuff more than the difficult stuff.
Laurel: And some of the difficult stuff will make good stories someday. Yes.
Rachel: You can tell your child on their wedding day, I have a whole bank of stuff
[00:56:00]
Rachel: so what's good this week? What are you enjoying?
Laurel: I have been trying to refresh my Spanish language learning and yeah, and it's. I had six years of it in school and never really put that effort in, I think, that I needed to.
But once I started going back through again, it's coming back pretty quickly. My younger son is in a dual language program, so he learns both in Spanish and English. And then my husband, because of that, who had never studied Spanish, started studying, and now I'm getting back into it, too. But this So what my good thing, or my interesting thing that I'm recommending came about because I saw on YouTube that a lot of people who learn English, apparently this is a thing, the way to learn English is to watch Friends.
And there's a lot of famous people who learned English specifically by watching Friends. Yeah, so I'll try to [00:57:00] find that video and show it to you. And so the thing that I, you know, so I'm like, what's the Spanish program that I need to watch to learn Spanish? The equivalent of friends. That sounds great. So I started doing some Googling and the first show I went with, it's called Treinta y Uno Minutos, which is like 31 minutes, which I think is supposed to be a play on 60 minutes, and I don't even want to compare it to Spanish.
Sesame Street. But if you think about Sesame Street in the old days, when I was a kid, when they were like little segments and they'd go like on the street and talk to the little kids in the really ugly eighties outfits about something. And so it's why these little sock puppets, it's like little news story.
And they're like a newsroom and they go out and interview people and have these ridiculous child interests. I couldn't even get through the 31 minutes. I mean, I got through about half of it. I'm like, okay, I'm over this. This is [00:58:00] not how I'm going to learn. And also I'm someone who, I, I watched English with the subtitles.
And I also really rely on people's mouths. I've realized that. And so not having a puppet does not have a mouth. And even in animation, they approximate what a mouth would look like. Yeah, that wasn't working for me. I needed real people. So I went through a couple other possibilities and then I landed on La Casa de Flores, which is House of Flowers.
It's on Netscape. No, that's, oh my god, how old am I? It's on Netflix, so you guys can watch it. And they actually do have it in English also, but I'm watching it in the original Spanish with subtitles. My husband calls it a telenovela, but it really isn't. It's, it takes itself a little more seriously than a telenovela does, which is very self operative, ridiculous.
But it has all those, um, Stories, like it's very soapy and it's, um, [00:59:00] storylines, but it's more drama like, but it's funny. And so I'm listening to it in Spanish and I'm, I've got the English subtitles on and I'm just hoping it's going through me in osmosis. And then I guess you're supposed to go back through and watch it with the Spanish subtitles and then you're supposed to watch it in English.
Just in Spanish, but I'm enjoying the story. It's a good story. So I think you guys would both enjoy it.
Rachel: How about you?
Pam: I have a cute story to tell.
Rachel: Okay.
Pam: We took care of Laurel's sons. Okay. A couple weekends ago and her youngest son liked to watch the Olympics with me and he particularly liked the swimming and the diving and the running. We watched it the night they got here to stay with us and then the next day we spent most of the day in the pool.
And so He was coming up with all of these games to play in the pool. [01:00:00] And I was sitting in a chair in one of those pool chairs. So he got in the other pool chair and he said, okay, we're going to have a race. So we raced in the chairs and he was winning with the chairs. So then he says, And he says, Nana, let's race without the chairs.
So I said, okay. And I got out of the chair and he says, look, Nana, I'm going to give you a 10 second head start. Okay. Cause you're probably going to need that. And I said, okay, so he gives me a 10 second head start. And I won the race. So he's looking at me and he goes, Wow, Nana, I, I never thought you'd be able to swim like that.
And he says, Okay, let's do it again. And he says, This time, I'm not giving you a 10 second head start. [01:01:00] I said, Okay, so we got we Race, and I won. And he's going, Nana, you're old. How can you swim like that?
I said, Honey, I've been swimming for a long time. And he said, But Nana. Look, you're 76, I'm 9. And he says, alright, I'm telling you what we're going to have to do. He said, this time we're going to do 3 laps straight, and then we have to do 3 laps around the pool. So I said, you won. Laughter
Um,
Rachel: mine this week, we finished my son's room. We've been redoing it because he's obsessed with planets. I've mentioned that before. [01:02:00] And so he has a new bed. And he's got, we painted one of the walls black. I just sent you guys a picture and we did some like finger painting with white paint. And we got these decals of the planets to put on all the walls.
And then we put glow in the dark stars over all over the walls. And he hasn't slept in it yet. But the other night I got up in the middle of the night to let the dogs out and I went in his room to see what it looked like at night. And it was just magical. It looks like the universe. So I'm really excited for him to see it at night and sleep in it.
So. We're gonna try. We're gonna try to get him to sleep in his room. I may be sleeping in there with him for a while.
Thank you. For chatting and our discussion today.
Pam: And if you're enjoying us, share us with your friends and family or anyone you think might be interested in listening to us.
Laurel: Leave a rating or review. [01:03:00] Subscribe.
Rachel: Subscribe. Subscribe. We'll see you next time.